My commute compared to others is quite simple. I walk to the PATH, I get on the PATH, ride a few stops, get off and walk a few blocks to my office.
For such a simple commute, one would think that getting from Point A to Point B would be relatively painless. But of course this is never true. I've complained and whined about commuting PDA (and how it should be banned completely), but now I have something new to complain about. My new gripe: how men become complete a-holes when commuting.
I am not one of those girls that complain about chivalry being dead. Just to preface, I like to think of myself as bit of a feminist (I go on tirades about feminism when drunk so don't get me started) so I'm not going to stare down a m. And while I do think that I, as a woman, am capable of most things that men are, I don't think that means that all the rules of respect between men and women should be discarded. I'm pretty traditional in that I like having my chair pulled out for me at a nice restaurant or having a guy hold the door open for me as I enter my apartment. To me these rules of etiquette are just a gesture of respect.
I feel like most men are good about these rules. Holding doors, helping me with my groceries are just little things that I have experienced lately that make me have faith in chivalry.
That is, until I step out of my apartment building at 8 a.m. Because it seems that all the rules of respect and chivalry are thrown to the wayside when men are commuting.
Yesterday morning, I witnessed a woman juggle a baby (who was so effing adorable btw), the baby's bottle/pacifier/baby bag, and her files for the day and no one offered her their seat. And let me tell you there were plenty of males in those plastic seats who could have gotten off their Crackberries to let her sit down. Can we say rude?
And the rudeness doesn't just stop at the subway and not offering seats to ladies who are obviously preggers, it follows me all the way to the office. Literally, I was practically run over by a gaggle of men fighting me to get into the elevator this morning. Are you kidding me? I was obviously here before you and I'm a woman! Please don't body check me so you can get to your floor first.
Bus rides seem to have a similar effect on men. A bus stops and men literally jump over women, pushing and shoving, to get off first. Which leaves me to ask, where has all the chivalry gone on my morning commute?
All I'm asking for is a little respect - a hand gesture indicating that I can exit the bus first, or an offer that I can have that seat on the subway, or holding the elevator for one second longer as I race into work 10 minutes late.
I need more chivalry on my morning commute.
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I am with you. I don't want a man thinking that I'm a "little woman" who can't do anything herself, but throw me a bone every now and again. Luckily my husband is good about the balance of letting me be a "big strong woman" and being chivalrous. So many men today are just selfish a-holes.
I would have totally offered that lady a seat, but that's because I have been on the subway with my 3 kids, with them swinging on the bars and knocking people out. Men should have to rent a couple kids for a day and drag them around to see what it feels like and then we'll see if they offer up a seat after they trip trying to get out on their stop and no one helps they just walk all on top of their stupid pig like bodies.
so sad men are not the same anymore... in a way i am still a princess waiting for her prince to come on a white horse.
try being a girl who's almost 4'11 and gets elbowed in the cheek, armpit order right in the nose, and continual jabs to the ribcage.
when i see men who don't offer their seat to preggie ladies or moms with kids, it makes me sick.
this whole issue is tops on my list of gripes about having to use public transportation.
We need more chivalry everywhere, but I know what you're saying. Next time some caveman body checks you, just yell out "Oh my god! You broke my ovary!"
ya know I totally agree with ya there.
Chivalry is no more and it is most unfortunate. I knightly chivalry was still bestowed and honored these days, I would honestly think this would make the world a better place.
To bad the majority of people don't care about others anymore...
See, I think I disagree (respectfully, of course!) with this. I think that women can't have it both ways. Either we are or are not the weaker sex that needs a seat and doors held for us.
Pregnancy is an extenuating circumstance, but I don't see why it's a call to MEN to give up their seats... any woman who is not with child should be equally as bound to do so.
I think you can seek out chivalrous men to date or be friends with, just like I wouldn't date a man who doesn't get along with his family. But I can't expect every man I meet on the el to love and respect his mom - just like I don't expect every man to share the same penchant toward chivalry.
Those sorts of things aren't just 'given' anymore, and if we want them to be, we as women will have to revert to the roles WE had in the past as well.
As a fellow PATH rider, I too battle the lack of consideration in general on those cattle cars, morning and evening. I have given my seat up many a time to someone in need, while the men (with wedding rings mind you) sit with their faces burried in the FT's/WSJ's. At any rate, you aren't alone!
When I have seen a pregnant or an elderly woman standing on the bus I offer my seat up to them. Then I glare at everyone else... Men are the usual culprits, but women should stick together!
I agree completely. I find myself opening doors for men entering the office oh so often. Too often if you ask me. I too think of myself as a strong independent woman. Sometimes I wonder if the men perceive that and therefore figure they shouldn't even try to be chivalrous... who knows.
P.S. - I love that you spell out effing and I love the term crackberry!
hmmm...not a girl here, but I appreciate your rant. It drove me crazy when I was in NYC to see that the person who offered a seat to the pregnant woman was usually some elderly female who needed a seat herself. As an (apparently) elitist member of a dying breed, it always pisses me off to see other men not being respectful, let alone chivalrous. I have been known to say to a guy in a suit, 'hey, how about letting the lady have your seat?' on more than one occasion.
ah, I don't disagree, but even as a woman, I've offered my seat on the train to pregnant women. It's not just men who ought to be chivalrous.
I agree with you, that was one of my biggest complaints working in the office (I now work from home) but I would see guys push their way onto the elevator, not hold doors and cut women off to get in line for the freakin' deli. I don't need them to be like prince charming but maybe show some manners and be a real man.
I agree. It seems that everyone falls asleep or becomes distracted in some type of way on that subway ride to work in the morning. Once a woman who is obviously preggers or of old age come by, very few people want to give up their seats.
I agree that Chivalry is dead. However, men shouldn't be the only one to practice it. Everyone should be reminded of their manners even in the morning.
i love the way u write, it reminds me of sex and the city and i love that show and i know what ya mean when men think they're soo much better
I'm so happy that I don't have to deal with public transportation, I find that it makes people bitter for some reason. A friend of mine got peed on during his morning commute! I just deal with guys (never women) riding my butt & then flying around me when I'm already going 5 over just to get stopped at the light in front of me. I think it has something to do with their lack of time management.
i agree w/ smiffl
Hi,
When I lived in San Francisco, I used to ride the muni alot. One day while on the muni my friend (male) offered his seat to a young woman. She was so rude to him and acted like he had insulted her. After that I understand why men are so confused about what to do regarding chivalry. I said to him "What will you do next time?"
He said I will offer my seat again and I will always open doors for ladies, because it is the polite thing to do. What a nice guy. Chivalry is not dead.
agreed, working girl!
men are only interesting in being chivalrous when they may benefit from it. on the morning commute, the possibility of taking you home later is slim to none, therefore the seemingly "right-thing-to-do" becomes an old school after thought.
I'm telling you its American culture - not to bash my country but we are always in such a damn hurry. That is what I loved about living abroad, manners still appear to be intact (as well as cigarette smoking everywhere and dogs in bars.)
I try to be respectful to women without being sexist as much as possible. Having two sisters, a mother, a wife and a daughter I am familiar with the plight of women. It's funny though sometimes they look at me strange like they don't know what to do when they have a door held for them or if I let them go in front me. Look for it, it's out there. Maybe you should get outta the metropolis, then you will see it.
I don't think its specific to culture, country or even gender for that matter, its just a basic lack of manners! Chivalry is not dead but fading. But it still makes me mad when someone doesn't offer a seat to a pregnant lady or senior citizens, not just men, even women!
C'mon ladies... if we were perfect, you would have NOTHING to bitch about! True or not true???
OK, I'll admit, not giving it up for pregnant women is a totally different story, though... unacceptable!!! Anyone with manners seems to be a dying breed. I am one of the few that have not gone extinct. But, I always find a way to "screw-up" in other areas, just ask my wife.
Love the blog... keep up the good "work" girls..
dsm3amigos.blogspot.com
Working Girl, shame about them (A""es). But what you are talking about is a very very complex issue. Men are loosing chivalry because of many reasons, societal of course... (no motivation, fear of female competition, bad manners from mother/father, parents didn't/weren't capable to educate them, no-time-for-this-society etc..). Yes, many men are very grumpy nowadays. Absolutely true. But it is just same way because women don't display typical/usual values that would wake up men. Let's just face it. Women voluntarily wanted and/or were practically constrained by disrespectful men to became completely equalized with men. I am using equalized, because what I mean is "to play roles" of men. So here we go. Certain jobs are men clubs and will always will be men clubs. This doesn't mean these jobs are for men only or anything. It means the dealings between men are always men-like dealings of pressure and rivalry in their nature. I can understand your frustration. Still, as you say, there is no excuse for men who let pregnant woman or woman with a baby in arms stand in subway. Or no excuse for men who are galloping you over in elevator. That's part of being Adolescent. Let's call it that way. If all woman can imagine they are ladies and behave that way men would show more respect. Because men crave for that. Psychologically and on awerage, a woman is more important for child's development than a man. This simple example means woman have powers but also responsibility in influencing man's behavior. Men are somewhat kids and playful in nature the whole life, till we die. (And there is an important reason for that.) But women have a partial responsibility for what you described. With all due respect to ladies. Regards.
Let's not forget other women too in the getting up to offer mom a seat department. How often will another woman simply look right through mom in that self same situation...even if they HAVE BEN in it themselves.
You don't have to be a man to be a complete a-hole that respect. Nor is it age or physical condition of the seated person that matters, but almost always their attitude.
I've got a degenerative neural condition that makes crutches very often necessary...and sometimes more than necessary, yet many is the time that it has been the one guy who got up while the dozen or so women seated right there have gone on staring right through me and the crutches.
Isshia
Amen, sistah! Seriously. I feel like there is a major lack of respect among all sexes though.
I consider myself a feminist as well, in the respect that women deserve the same treatment as men.
However, that includes respect. Can WE GET SOME RESPECT? I don't know.
I'm just sick and tired of dreading the walk home everyday from school because it makes me dry heave when I get "hollered" at.
Then again, I live in the South... and from my experience, people up North are a bit more respectful (men towards women, that is).
Chivalry is not dead, its in hiding. First: I want to say that when it comes to the elderly, those with child or those in phisical need, it shouldnt be a question for ANYONE, male or female, to be polite and give up seats or offer assistance.Period. That being said...As a man, and one that still has faith in manners, chivalry and all the forms of "niceness" that people used to use without hidden agendas, I understand your complaint. But as one that lives on the other side of the sexes I can tell you why you are finding chivalry in hiding. More than half the time I use my manners or chivalry I get hammered for it. Either by the woman I was being curtious to, or someone nearby going off on me for belittling a woman. And the attitude of so many women is that they "deserve" this special treatment but fail to show any respect toward men. We appear to them as only a cashflow inhancement and nothing more. The huge attitude change in women has caused the idea of chivalry to be out of fasion and for the most part it is exactly what they asked for. Equality is an all or nothing deal, especialy when it is almost always so militant in its presentation. Granted, there are a lot of women that do not agree with that idea or attitude, but when we as men get that slap in the face a few hundred times, we start to give up hope too. I have always called myself a hopefull romantic. I love romance! But I cant find any women that are willing to share the idea of romance and not expect more than they give. They want to be "independant" and equal, but still get all the benifits of being the weaker sex. It ruins it for the women out there that DO have a sense of romance and chivaly and for what being a woman once was, just like the pigs that treat women like a trophy or a sidekick instead of a partner ruin it for those men that feel as I do. I heard this and it seams to fit th idea that I am trying to explain...A woman should complete a man, not finish him off!! I cant begin to tell you how many times I see a woman using the fact that they are a female to get what they want from a man, and then treating him like dirt because he expects to be treated with a little decency. NO I'm not talking about sex!! I'm talking about being polite and not walking all over him in public or just stop answering his calls once he has helped you move, fixed your parking tickets, or your car. We are "sweety, honey, cupcake and sugarbunch" till we are no longer usefull, then we are left on the curb like yesterdays trash. That is so commonplace, that chivaly has gone into hiding until its safe to come back out.
Signed: Still Hopefull and Still Romantic!!
mike valentino- that's probably the BEST idea i've ever heard... seriously! hahaha
Great post. Reeled me in! I agree with this too. Men only have manners when they have to, because we ALL know what 95% of them want -- poonanny. Butter you up with manners to get inside your pants. But when they're on THEIR clock, they couldn't give two flying shits about you. Ugh! Men, if they can be called that, are pathetic!
Cool blog:)
Soooo true! Great post. I have experienced the same thing in Chicago. And, you have such a cute blog...I'm totally jealous and wanting to make mine pretty too.
oh man i'm so glad i don't have to deal with other people on my commute...just horrible la drivers, haha.
I have mostly had good experiences with men being chivalrous in situations like this. My problem is the women. I HATE holding doors open for women and they just walk right in never saying a word. I'm not asking them to bow down and kiss my feet but a simple thanks would do. Or really, even just not giving me the look that says "scum, you SHOULD hold the door open for me". Then I just start to feel evil and I immediately think "bitch I do NOT have to hold the door for you" as I am willing them to trip and fall, breaking their acrylic nails and falling on their implants.
Looks like karma plays a role in your life. I do all the things for my that you explain and more, and I also help other women and MEN. I just don't respect women I respect people. Did you give up your seat for the lady? How can you expect men to have respect for that woman when you didn't? By the way... Chivalry??? You've been watching to many movies. It's called character and respect and it is not gender selective. The centric idea behind Feminism was reached years ago, now feminism is making men disgruntled towards women like you. Sorry, but I like to be honest. Life is pretty simple, be nice and you'll be treated nice, no matter your gender. - Sincerely a happily married man who laughs his life away with his happily married wife.
I haven't experienced a lot of rude men on my morning commute...I find that most of them will step out of the way to let me on first or will wait until I get on the elevator first (which I still think is odd). It does annoy me though when the guys take all the seats...
A few weeks ago I was hauling a suitcase on my morning commute (I was leaving later in the day for a trip to the Big Apple), and it was like 900 degrees, my suitcase was so heavy and the bus was jam packed. I clearly was struggling, sweating profusely and feeling ridiculously claustrophobic. And NOT ONE person offered their seat or offered any help whatsoever. They just glared at me while I tried to shuffle to the back of the bus as people got on and off. GRRRRR. From now on, I'm going to splurge on a cab!
You are right. Public transit brings out the worst in people all over the world. I fainted on the street car the other day, and even the people trying to help me were pushy. I faint regularly and so I know why and do not need to go to the hospital, but they were acting like I was an imbecile for claiming I knew my own health better than they did and so did not need to wait for six hours in an emergency room just to be seen by a doctor to be told what I already know, I have LOW blood pressure.
@Mugidy:
Mugidy, perfect post, I agree with you.
It's really annoying to see man jump over even children to get on bus first. It's more likely that females offer their seats to preggers or the elderly.
boo fucking hoo. y'all bitches just want something to complain about. what you really need a good rogering.
I'm a woman and I try to give up my seat to pregnant ladies, young children, elderly or the infirmed. Heh, yup, even if it's a guy with a broken leg, he deserves a seat more than I do!
I do think now a days it's a little more difficult for a man to be chivalrous. I mean, if he's chivalrous to a feminist, he risks being called a male chauvinist or worse.
Nice blog, I enjoyed your post.
I would like to preface my comment by saying that I consider myself to be quite considerate. I will do things like hold doors for, or help carry heavy items for anyone male or female.
There is no excusing people pushing in front of you on the bus or elevator. However, since you are a feminist and you believe that men and women are equal, I don't understand why you seem to believe that it is the sole responsibility of men to offer their seat to a woman with her hands full. I am really interested in why you did not offer her your seat. There is a good chance that those men sitting in their plastic seats engrossed in their 'crackberries' didn't even notice the woman with the baby standing there.
As far as offering a seat to you, something like that should be considered a very nice gesture, not something to be expected. I personally have had to ask a person on crutches several times before he finally relented and sat in my seat. I have gotten up out of my seat to offer it to an elderly person standing who refused until we both stood for about five minutes. I am making the assumption that you are a young woman with no health problems. I am genuinely curious as to why you think that a man should offer his seat to you. While I will admit that since I am in very good shape, it is very easy for me to stand, I believe in general that it takes just as much effort for a man to stand as a woman. I don't think I would necessarily offer my seat to a woman who appears to be in fine physical condition, because I would rather save it in case someone who is elderly or infirm who really needs to sit gets on at a later stop.
Gandhi said "Be the change you want to see in the world." If you want people to be more courteous, take the first step, set an example and show them how it's done.
@ lori
I agree, we can't claim to be equal while acting as "the weaker sex".
I also agree that women as well as men should be considerate enough to do simple things like hold doors for someone (male or female) who is struggling with packages, etc... or offer up a seat in the case of pregnancy, disability, or old age.
However, biologically there are obviously differences (generally strength, height) which might factor into some of these situations and I would hope that men could politely recognize this without claiming to be the "better sex."
Human here... happens to be a man. Ya, holding doors and pulling chairs is wonderful, but should not be confined to gender roles. Women should hold doors for men, men should hold doors for women, women should hold doors for women and so on and so forth. Why does it have to be about chivalry? If we go down that path, I can guarantee you are subconsciously training men to think of women as less capable and training women to become complacent. Instead of chivalry, it can be as simple as pragmatism. The person who requires the most practical assistance should be offered it. It sounds like the men on your PATH require some assistance with their priorities. Tech gadgets do not deserve more respect than human lives. Tech gadgets are a black hole for attention, giving nothing back and eventually needing to be replaced in contrast to human beings who take care of themselves and each other. The concept of chivalry pertaining to gender roles risks mechanizing human relationships. Mix it up a bit, and pay attention to find those who need more than you.
Interesting post and discussion. My wife and I debated the same point when we were both commuting. The way I view it from this side of the gender aisle is that strong or fit should always yield to weak or less fit. Other things being equal, there is no reason why the healthy female sitting next to me shouldn't yield her seat to the pregnant woman or elderly man just as I would and do. Holding doors (other than on a date, etc., when a good impression is important) is something of a throwback. I do it reflexively, but it really makes no sense for me to step aside and let the woman go first. Better that whoever opens the door should step through but hold it so that it does not close in the face of the next person.
The bottom line is that women seem to bemoan the loss of chivalry when they are losing a privilege, no matter how slight.
love the site~!
Women have wanted for since the beginning of time to have equality between the two genders. It's finally happening - thousands of years too late.
So now women get treated like men in more ways than they bargained for.
Sucks what happened though. :(
Most men not offering seats seems to be a common practice at many places. What's worse, I've witnessed even many women behaving alike. C'mon girls [I mean those who behave like these men], if we don't offer pregnant women / old women / those juggling with kids and a loads of luggage, what kinda example are we setting for men?
About men, I think we should start pointing their mistakes out to them directly right in front of fellow passengers, one day they shall learn.
Hah, funny...I just wrote about chivalry on my hubpages blog tonight! We definitely need more chivalry in today's world, and it has nothing to do with women not being able to do things on their own (or stand instead of sit on the subway, for instance). It's about courtesy and thoughtfulness! If you'd like to see more of my thoughts on chivalry: http://hubpages.com/hub/Is-Chivalry-Really-Dead
Great blog!
this is exactly true! i went to the gym just 3 days ago and guess what? they didn't even hold the doors for me. and when i was about to use one of the equipments, this guy just brushed past me and used it, without a word. a**.
Hey WG2! I think you have hit the nail on the head! I live in London - and during the morning commute you will experience the exact same situations! There was one incident where I offered my seat to a pregnant lady who was making her way to the seat, but as soon as I got off my seat, an A$%^&LE dived in... Another guy who was also standing grabbed that idiot and literally threw him to the floor.
I wish people would think - what if that was your mom, wife, sister, or daughter?
Its just plain and simple manners, I was brought up properly, to open a door for a lady, and hold it open. If no seats offer it to a lady or an elderly person. Ladies first.
It just seems simple to me that is what to do. Occasionally I get the odd female who gives me a disgusted look, as if to say, I can open the door myself. Those ones, I just smile to myself, and carryon being curtious.
Manners cost nothing but can go a long way to making someone elses day.
I have noticed though that here in the UK there are less and less curtious people. Ho hum, but I won't change. :o)
I live in the Midwest, so chivalry is still (sort of) alive here. Of course we have fewer public commute situations as well. It is still generally accepted here that a man opens doors for/holds elevators for/gives up a seat for a lady, especially a pregnant or child-juggling one. However, the downside to that is that feminism is still considered a 'dirty' word and openly admitting you are fully a feminist can result in some unfriendly behavior by the very traditional people here.
1:Mr. Anonymous-
Perhaps you should get it through your thick skull, most of the time...we don't want to bitch. It's people like you that lead us to do it. Have a lovely day, prick.
2. All Chilvary isn't dead, I promise. :-)
Just yesterday as I was crossing the street to my job, I dropped the files and my purse I was carrying and a nice guy who was jogging stopped and helped me pick it all up and offered to help me. Not so bad.
3. Most others are right, we should all be respectful. And great post!!
I actually love to help out ladies in any situation that even hints at chivalry. It feels good, and I genuinely think men should pay that kind of respect to women in general. However, I cannot tell you the many, many times I have shown the courtesy and respect, only to be completely snubbed in return. Not a look, not a nod, not a thank you, nothing. If chivalry is something that men should do out of respect, then a simple thank you or any kind of response should be required as respect back to the gentleman extending the courtesy. Wouldn't you agree? I have given up seats, opened doors, carried items, etc., and I can remember several instances with each different act of chivalry that went without any sort of gratitude or recognition even. In my own opinion, this is one reason, but not entirely, why men are slowly but surely shying away from this sort of respect towards women. If I could say anything to help this situation, it would be for women to make men feel like acting in this way again. I know I certainly don't, even though I still do.
I'm a man (wow, I sometimes feel like an alien saying that) and hopefully I can shed some light on this issue.
Men don't naturally fall into rigid structure, we have to be whipped and encouraged into it. Look at the army for an example of that theory in practice. Naturally, we're impulsive and slightly lazy. Without proper training, pleasures of the flesh will often overpower our daily actions (make that secondly, men don't think in terms of days, only moments in time).
But, before I affirm every hardcore feminist's negative viewpoint of men the world over, I can let you in on a secret. Men who are brought up well have a deeply ingrained sense of moral duty towards women. That's what you're catching a very small glimpse of when we open doors for you or help you with your groceries (although the latter seems a bit too old fashioned for me, I've got my own shopping to carry).
But unfortunately at 8 in the morning, when our jumbled masculine minds are concentrating on the unnaturally forced routine of the deadly 9 to 5, we are but shadows of our true selves. Duty takes a back seat at this time and it is replaced by the ugly, selfish nature of the city commuter, a mind set that has evolved through living in dog-eat-dog crowded cities, fueled by big, competitive businesses.
The only consellation I can give you is that any half-decent man who looked at the woman struggling long enough to actually see her through the 'commuter cloud' will have felt a nagging guilt at his lack of moral courage to stand up infront of everyone else and verbally offer the lady a seat.
I'll remember you and that lady next time I'm occupying someone's potential sanctuary.
http://mikemhz.blogspot.com/
Unfortunately, with the woman's movement, men have stuck their fingers in the air to us because their egos have been hurt... Too bad there are so many who just follow suit and don't think beyond their noses to see the fact that they'll be the one to stick out when he shows a little respect --
you make fair points. it does go both ways though ... an unsolicited lap dance on the path might be a nice gesture
thats society for u yup. no more mr nice guys. i give up my seat to old, elderly, pregnant, disabled (unless they can't see me ) jk. but yeah a nice rant there thumbs up
Its my last day as a working girl as Im taking a 3 month leave. I know what will fill the boring days when it rains "Working Girl". xfrancis
ps i like to believe chivalry is still out there.......... somewhere :)
Ugh! I know exactly what you mean! It really pisses me off when mean acutally cut in front of you and push you out of the way! WTF! Now I'm actually shocked whenever a guy lets me go first. I usually have to do a double take before I realize the gesture. One time a guy offered me his seat on the subway and I thought I would die!
I went through 6 months of commuting hell when I used to commute to Dallas via DART train. I witnessed more on my 45 minute commute than I thought possible. Men who wouldn't give up their seats for old women, men who would yell at other men for touching their bags, homeless men & women announcing to the train that Jesus would be visiting in the near future. I finally had to quit -- and on my last train ride to the office, I caught a guy peeing on the train. No joke.
I am no woman, and I find everything you said 100% true. Though, you should try living in Japan for a couple of months, you'd find the PATH a piece of cake.
I don't think that I should be allowed to exit first from the train simply because I am female; nor do I think that I should be allowed to in the elevator first just because I am not a man. I think that a simple respect of the rule 'first come first serve' should apply when getting in/off trains and elevators. I think it is a bit conceited for a woman to be offended or insist special treatment in this situations.
But I completely agree with you when it comes to pregnant women, old people, physically disabled people, and babies. I have offered my seat to old ladies before and felt a bit embarrassed that nobody else tried to offer.
And yes, crackberry-addicts are very annoying! Are they really that important that the word would stop if they don't check every effing minute if they received new messages? Must they really respond so quickly...like they have nothing better to do?
Eric J. Mandela...
You NAILED it!
I have an 18 year old son, and I have seen first-hand the benefits of "leading by example". He is one of the first to offer to carry packages, offer up a seat or make room in a crowded situation, because I always have been the same way! Even though a self-described feminist, I do not believe women are entitled to respect by virture of being a woman. If I want respect, I must earn it like anyone else. I wil certainly hold a door for someone, male or female. But what I EXPECT, as a human being, is appreciation of that gesture. A simple "Thank you", or some other form of acknowldgement. I don't expect anyone to hold a door for me, and when they do, I'm first shocked, then appreciative. A smiling "thank you" goes a LONG way.
As for those women who are SO feminist that they would lambast some poor man for offering up a seat or holding a door, that's just totally wrong from the other side of the issue. Someone pegged that, too - it confuses men and rather than act in a way that might end them up in court on a harrassment charge, they'd prefer NOT to act, thus angering the other side of the group. It's a tough world we live in!
I totally agree with you on the idea that if you're able-bodied, male OR female, there's no excuse to sit on your hind parts while someone who obviously needs the seat stands. We're not the weaker sex, and we don't *deserve* to be treated specially because we're women - everyone deserves it because we're all sharing the planet.
Men are too afraid anymore to pull out a chair, to give up a seat, to give up the cab in the rain.
Uber-feminists have ruined that for you gals, sorry to say. And now with the hoax of the Sex Offending boogie man waiting to secretly drug you with the chair or in the cab he offers, most men are going to continue NOT to give the same old manners that MOM was used to getting.
I am not trying to be utterly cruel here, but you cannot have it both ways ladies. "I am equal" has become so close to "I am equal and will have you thrown in jail for looking at me because you are degrading me" that men are not only worried, but down right scared. We are too afraid of being looked at as a sexual harassment waiting to happen. We figure if we absolutely treat you as brash and rough as the guys we know then we will never have the specter of worry above us. You created this monster, deal with it.
Some guys have to learn their manners. This happens in Singapore trains as well! I'm a high school student, and every morning i've got to stand my way to school, because no one offers their seats! I mean like excuse me, i've got my school bag..and it's heavy. So yeah.
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Thing seems happening similarly here in Singapore!
Women are just as bad as men.
I totally agre with you all the way. I see this all the time. It is if you are invisible. But if you wear something revealing they seem to notice you instantly. Sad these men need to go back to the old days they are really slacking.
I think that it's not really that "Chivalry is dead" as much as it is that thankfulness and gratitude are dying. I almost always open doors for ladies, (and men too, if I'm the first to the door) but often times what I get is a confused look instead of a "Well… thank you sir!" ~ jb///
Well to me women are equals to men, and its thoroughly disgusting that men behave this way! Being a man (boy rather lol) there was a phase when i always did want to offer help to a woman in need,but it was difficult since i never saw more able men doing anything! I've grown out of that, and even go out of my way to help woman. I feel there is nothing wrong with chivalry of the middle ages! Hell, i wanted to be born in that frame anyway!! :D
If chivalry is dead... it was murdered. But chances are, the death was faked, and its now in the witness protection program. Because its often hard to see it.
You won't often recognize chivalry when it happens... but you do when it's not.
There was a point when chivalry meant "I want to have sexual-sexy-sex with you". In large part, it still exists in that way as well. Just because a guy isn't doing it for you, doesn't mean he isn't doing it for some object of his affection. But I think it's also this interpretation that gave the Sexual Harassment its rise to power... because some guys *were* using the "hold open a door for a lady" as an opportunity to check out your butt. It's been a few bad apples that are rotting the rest of the bunch.
But it's always sticky territory to group ALL men in a category based on one city's behavior. There is a reason people are on their "crackberries"... they're trying to get work done. Maybe they're going through personal drama... a death in the family, maybe they're in danger of losing their job if this quarter's earnings aren't up to snuff... meaning every minute counts... even the ones when they're on the bus heading to work. Thanks to technology... we've ALL become so absorbed in our selves and these tiny devices meant to make life easier... that it's entirely possible they don't actually SEE the pregnant woman 2 feet away from them.
Others... may be so paranoid of being yelled at in public, or accused of sexual harassment... that they don't do anything. In that case... who really killed chivalry there? Probably a little of both sides.
Yes, rudeness can be a problem... but you also can't slap gender-specific labels and rules to courtesy... you only confuse the issue. Sure, you can hold open a door for a lady... but to NOT do the same for a man is hypocritical.
And to further feed the fire, reading articles and hearing arguments about "all men are scum" and "men aren't necessary anymore" doesn't give that gender a lot of motivation to be nice.
I know most every woman likes to think of themselves as a "princess" waiting for her "prince"... but you're not. And we're no princes. Maybe the expectations are too-high... so no matter who you meet, and how they treat you... you'll be disappointed and look at them as scum.
I once overheard some advice meant for a woman, "If you want a man to fight for you... be the kind of woman that's worth fighting over. And don't automatically assume you are." A harsh, humbling statement for sure... but one I think makes some interesting points.
I have no love for crowds and the average stranger. 90% of them I want to kick in the head myself when I see a basic kindness being neglected... but I've given up my seat for, and opened doors for, Women AND Men. I just try to be polite to "people"... and we can only control ourselves. But based on those two activities... I can't call myself Chivalrous. I think it means a lot more than that.
Likewise, just because you DON'T see it... doesn't mean it's dead. Like I said... I think it's in hiding.
Tis True! Men are not as gentlemanly as they use to be. What the heck happened to them?
Well, we're not as ladylike as we use to be either. So I guess we shouldn't complain an awful lot. I can't remember the last time I greeted my husband at the door w/a smile and his slippers, cooked him a full meal, allowed him to kick his feet up while I cleaned up after dinner and handed him his pipe/cigar.
But I come pretty darn close to that so maybe I will complain!
hey yeah i totly agree with..though i am a male...and personally id ont do all this cheapo stuff..but a few ,ales who i know do this purposefuly to get in 'contact' if u know what i mean to get a bit of a morning wood :p..i have always noticed guys who have sisters(ex.like me) dont do all this shit to other females as it really kills to think what will happen if that happens to our sisters..
I think it's a general issue of good manners, regardless of gender.
If a pregnant woman is standing, anyone who can stand should offer the seat. Man, woman, other. Same with not running over people to get cabs, holding elevators, helping others.
There's petty of good guys out there...maybe you just had a bad morning.
Haha that's so true! I just love it when they let the door hit me in my face and glance back like I'm some kind of freak for expecting it to be held open for me...when they just walked through it! I love your blog. Keep it up, keep it up.
I'm sorry that the men on the E-side get lost in their comute. They should pass a law if a man commits such an act they would get like a 4 hour training on what it means to be a man. My father raised me right!. you sit when all women are already seated and there is space availible. I may not know how to spell perfect...but I know how to be a perfect genelman!.
I love your writing, you had me laughing so hard the people in the next room came over to read your post!
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Caroline Grace
wwww.gracedpaper.com
I 100% agree with this. I'm still at High School myself, and it's even worse in the younger generation.
I often find myself holding the doors open for males within school, and out and about simply because i am of the younger generation and labeled as many of us are.
I find it sad that many simple things such holding the chair out for a woman to be seated has died out completly, it's not much to ask is it?
Men work no harder than us, in most cases. Most woman have equally hard working jobs as men, occasionally earning more pay.
On a lighter note, some men are lovely :)
Chivalry is only dead when things are inconvenient to others.
I'd like to be a snarky human with tetes here and raise up my fellow testicular brethern by saying that the lack of the everyday John Wayne stuff is one of the prices of the feminist movement be so successful....
...but the truth is probably somewhat like this...more and more young menfolks don't even know what chivalry is (so do I gotta like, put on armor and go jousting and zhit?) much less employ it!
Hey did you know the reason dudes are suposed to walk on the side closed to to the street is because back in those "funkadelic" medieval times, people used to dump their wicked gnarly fecal matter and garbage out the windows...so the guy was more likely then to take a poopie bomb because she got more of the covered sidewalk?
Ah those Middle Ages were the days huh? ;) :)
I know! Aren't NYC commuters the worst! I hate it! Good thing I only have to walk a few blocks every morning, but still, I hate stupid people. NYC doesn't have room for them!
Cool Site! Congrats on Blogger "Blogs of Note"
Oh, but it isn't just men who are thoughtless - I was 9 months pg in 95 degree heat waiting for a bus and no one offered me a seat. ever. And I live in a southern state that is supposed to be more chivalrous. Anyway, on the plus side, I found that if I broke down and actually asked for a seat people were usually more than happy (and often embarrassed) to comply - usually gave it up with an apology. It irritated me to have to ask, but it is nice to know that people recogniized their rudeness.
I love this line of yours!, "I go on tirades about feminism when drunk so don't get me started.." You women want it both ways, but you can't have it. Either you're independent and taken seriously or you're catered to with chivalry, not both. I like a strong independent woman.
hmmm.... I dont have idea...
This is my first time reading your blog, and guess what, the first article was like it was written by myself, especially the elevator part....its my biggest irritation!!! I am always telling my co-workers that everyone should go on elevator etiquette classes or something, in fact it should be mandatory!!!
So now you have me hooked :-)
Love the blog!
I hear that!!!!!!!!!!
As a marketing working girl in Chicago I feel your pain about the chivalary. I think people have not come to expect it, so its not even frowned upon when men or women for that matter do not have manners. While taking the bus to work yesterday morning, the bus driver sneezed. I said bless you, the only one on a crowded bus to say so. A man remarked, " wow that was unexpectdly kind", I smiled gently because its something I do all the time.
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hiii
that was nice reading....
i quite enjoyed it
Yup, here's the problem. Men have gotten gun-shy because too often, when offering chivalry, we get the cold stare or even a tirade. You can't have it both ways. I always want to do my best to smooth the path for anyone overloaded, because I have been in that situation myself.
But it can't be just a man-helping-woman thing, or you have just ceded your "moral high ground" on so many feminist issues it makes the head spin. Either you want to be treated like a fair maiden or you don't. Make up your mind.
I don't use mass transit much, but the few times I have I witnessed the same pitiful sight. There is chivalry left in a few good men and like smilf I too am married to a wonderful man who would have given up his seat. I raised 4 boys by myself and the top lesson taught to them was respect for women. Fortunately I suceeded in 3 out of 4. Maybe one day...
I have to say that this post title contradicts the feminist beliefs stated within the post itself. First I don't believe feminism has done women any favours, because if you are a feminist you really have no right to complain when men treat you as they would each other (trample you for the elevator, not give there seats up for each other no matter the situation.. etc). So as a feminist you can't have it both ways, you are either completely equal or you should expect that kind of treatment, or you are a traditionalist where you should expect chivalry. Let me ask you this, when was the last time you pulled out a chair for a man, or gave up your seat to a man? As a feminist shouldn't you be doing the same things you expect from men, for them? (That is after all true equality, but it is something I personally would never expect, or ask for. With that as a benchmark I guess feminists have a long way to go before they are really mens' equals and really feminists.)
However that being said, in my opinion there is really never a place for common decency to be thrown to the wayside such as the case of the lady with the baby you mentioned (or for that matter the men pushing past you to reach the elevator, but again if you are truly a feminist you should expect no less).
I do believe that these type of actions and behaviours are the logical outcome of the society that values self over community. Where we used to be able to work together and help our neighbors, today you find we barely know (or care to know) anything much about the people we live around.
I think that we have done a dis-service to society by promoting concepts which may appear on the surface as acceptable, but which undermine the decency we should all expect from each other. We need to take a step back in certain areas such as "common" decency and politeness to a place where we took pride in making sure that those around us (even though we may not know them, or are in a public setting) were thinking of the others around them above themselves.
I never see us as a society coming back to that however, but the only way it works is if we all start it with no expectation of the same being done for us in return. You can't expect a "knight in shining armour" as one comment alluded to, when society is no longer training "knights".
I love your blog! I totally agree with you and the chivalry thing. You'd think guys would figure it out by now!!!!
I think chivalry was killed by the Donahue era swing of the pendulum where any form of etiquitte, Emily Post, or chivalrous behavior was rebuffed. In some cases, actions previously known as chivalry were erroneously grouped under the category of "sexual harrassment." So, offering to hold a chair is wrong? Ouch!
Now, the social pendulum seems to be swinging back in the opposite direction, and some guys haven't noticed.
Doesn't make them selfish a-holes (as a previous poster noted) --- it just means they haven't caught on to the change yet.
i know that u were also standing or else u would have gladly offered your seat. While being on the bus nowadays, the right thing to do is to offer your seat to the elderly, pregnant and others who obviously have problems standing. Not to some women or school girl who have 2 pairs or working legs and arms. its always the same thing when a bus arrives. if men are in front of the queue, women shove us aside to get in front and count on our "chivalry" to remain silent. after all we're all equal. otherwise i pull out the chair, open the door, etc to any person of the opposite sex.
That is so true. Chivalry is definitely not dead, but it happens to show up less now and then.
youre funny as shit.
I can't get too bothered about the old chivilary game....to me, those who play it are usually perverts and weirdos. Saying that, good manners should prevale; if someone is struggling, then offer assistance - be they male or female, young or old etc. Of course someone should offer their seat to a pregnant female or someone with a baby - that's called common decency.
The reason I dislike the 'chivilary' word is that giving you seat up on the tube/subway/bus for a box-standard female is saying 'ok, i'm male and you're a weak female. take my seat because you're weaker'. Total crap as far as I'm concerned; I'll gladly give up my seat for anyone who needs it regardless of sex; the same applies to holding doors open or any other assistance I can offer.
The fact that chivilary is dead shouldn't really concern you....the fact that good manners is dead should.
Peace & love
:-)
The kat
yeah, um, you're not a feminist. You're a barbie doll that thinks that chanting, girls are great somehow means you are a feminist. Read something once in awhile, I'm sure your library actually has a women's studies or feminism section you could try.
Oh I am in such utter agreement with you! As I was reading your blog I was just nodding so much, its all so true.
I have often wondered if male commuters either just dont see these things or if they just dont care!
They seem to only be interested in helping someone if its in their own self interest! (ie: Girlfriend looking on, or trying to pickup the girl they are helping etc).
I am looking forward to reading more blogs from you!
you got your equality now deal with it!
Chivalry is no more and it is most unfortunate. I knightly chivalry was still bestowed and honored these days, I would honestly think this would make the world a better place.
To bad the majority of people don't care about others anymore...
While I understand where you're coming from, I don't think it's just men being rude and not just in the mornings. I find people in general are becoming more and more intolerable. Add to their already crappy attitudes a dose of morning groggyness and you have some nasty people on your hands. Men AND women, all the time, as if their morning problems never go away. Everyone is waking up on the wrong side of the bed these days and never getting over it.
As a male feminist I think you should really rethink your traditional notions of chivalry and male-female relations. Women need to get over these outdated notions about men going out of their way to do nice things for them because they have a set of breasts and a vagina. As a gay male, while I find the female body beautiful, those physical attributes aren't enough to make me do unreciprocated acts of gentility to a person just because she has 2 X chromosomes. Get over yourself- especially in NYC and Northern Jersey. You are in one of the most metropolitan places in the world. If you want to be treated like a southern belle, move to Alabama. With all of that said, I do think men and women should both, if they choose to be so charitable, try to have some good manners and get up for an elderly person or a man (hello- men carry infants too!) or a woman with a small child who clearly needs the seat. But this sense of entitlement has gotta go. I just moved to Denver and am appalled by how the women here EXPECT to be coddled by men. It makes me want to run back to NYC where people are TRULY treated more equally, regardless of their gender. The facade of chivalry is a shallow lacquer under which misogyny and good-old fashioned male patriarchy hide. Wake up and be the strong woman it sounds like you already know you are and hold your own door. And when someone does hold the door for you, accept it as a kind gesture from another human being- not a gentile show of respect for your breasts and what's between your legs.
I'm all for manners, but you ladies started the whole gender role confusion thing...
I'm a huge fan of your blog but I'm commenting for the first time.
You've sort of inspired on my own blog as well. Thnx!
I live in India, where the situation is quite the same, especially in the mornings just like yours. I take the morning train as well to get to college and its literally a battle to get a seat when the men are only interested in getting a seat and sleeping!
So how would u feel if there is a man on the Bus with a kid and in a similar situation as you have on your blog.. would u still feel as bad when nobody offers him a seat.. or would you be kind enough to give him your seat??
love this post... and i agree on everything u said..
I agree with the sentiments but I think, as women, we can't have it both ways. Equality in the work place has created equality in every day life and not a little resentment or indifference, I'm thinkin'. I always hold the door for others and offer help to a mother with too much paraphanalia on her hands. How can you not? It's really about courtesy more than chivalry.
I used to live in San Francisco, where the commute was more civilized at least in the early 90s. However, as the mother of two young boys this is a reminder to teach my boys, who will someday be men, to have proper etiquette when it comes to all people, most especially women and the elderly. Being passive-aggressive I would have offered the lady with the baby my seat and then made some loud comments about how rude people have become.
I'm what you might call an anti-feminist. I think the pandora's box of gender confusion that was opened by the feminist and PC crowd has done much more than just help to kill chivalry. That said, I think you're fully entitled to your own opinion on the subject. What I don't understand is why you think women should be able to have it both ways? That kind of position seems to be self defeating, does it not?
I like to think of myself as chivalrous. I open doors, let women enter/exit the elevators first, carry bags, lift anything remotely heavy, give them my seat when seats are scarce, etc, for women (and the elderly or handicapped while I'm at it). But I also see women in the light of the traditional values that I hold, so I'm being consistent.
Back to the subject of the commute, commutes are groggy eyed, caffeine fulled mad dashes to a destination nobody wants to be at. This tends to bring out the worst in people, chivalry be damned.
My mom would love your post, she feels pretty much the same way you do. I also agree. Men do not treat women how they used to back then. Most of them have become inconsiderate of others, especially women, and its sad. However, I think there still are a few gentlemen in this world, wherever they may be.
love this post.. and i agree on everything u sai...
What a load of BS! Women always want it both ways. You want your cake and eat it too. Let me tell you that any signs of "disrespect" that you percieve are totally the fault of women. If you want to be treated equally, then you have to put up with the consequenses. So you want men to let up go in the elevator first at work, but then then you want men to treat you as an equal in the work place? How is a man supposed to act. Women have contorted every act of "chivalry" (as you call it) that men have tried to bestowe upon them as an assult on feminism. A huge and perfect example is women in combat. Combat used to be the duty and respoinsibility of men. Men were fine with that. In fact, it seemed pretty noble of men to leave the combat to men, and give the women a break. But then the femenists got into the act. Now women are supposedly "equal" on the battlefield. Great. Nice work. Now you have the opportunity to get killed in war just like men. I hope you're happy with that opportunity. Still, when a man turns 18 he is required to register for the draft. I hope this whole feminist movement is taken followed through and Selective Services required women to also register. Combat is just one example. The point is, if you want equal benefits, you have to put up with equal responsibilities if you want to be truely equal. Stop complaining about not getting a seat on the bus/subway. Why is it a man's responsibility to give up his seat? In this "new" world, couldn't a woman just as easiliy have given up her seat? And I will not tell you how many times I've had a door shut in my face when following behind a woman into some establishment. Come off it. If you want to address it as a question of rudeness and manners, then fine, but you did not address it that way. You addressed it as a matter of gender. Do I think PEOPLE (not man or woman) should be curtious and give up a seat for someone the needs it more then them? Certainly. Do I even think that a man should give up his seat for a woman? Perhaps, but not for the reasons you give. Not for some notion of chivalry that keeps biting us men in the ass. One other point...have you considered that the men you lambaste might have other things on their minds? Other than YOUR feelings? Have you ever considered that they are battling the rat-race and trying to get to work to provide for their FAMILIES, and that your feelings are WAY down their priority list? Regardless of what you and many other women believe, your emotions are not the center of the universe.
One final thought...men will start taking you seriously when then next time a ship goes down at sea no woman takes advantage of "woman and children first." You're equal. You go down with the ship with the dudes babe.
Great blog and I agree totally.
Well I deal with truck drivers all day long so chivalry... what is that? I agree with what Mugidy said. I think that men have been bamboozled by women so drastically in the past 20 years that it can't help but change them. The young women of today have a very hard job in front of them if they want to get their respect back. The talk circiut was full of shows about how women drop out of school and don't work or get minor jobs because they are attractive enough that they get men to pay their way thru life and very comfortably I might add. Not only have I seen it on the talk shows a few years ago but I've also witnessed it in life. My daughter is a very attractive girl with many attractive friends. They are in their mid twenties. One works as a stipper to put herself thru college. I don't see a problem there if that's what she chooses to do and she isn't into prostitution, drugs or robbing men. But two of the other girls have completely gotten by since dropping out of high school in the 12th grade as they discovered that thier beauty and charm could get them anything they want. They live quite well and do not work, not married and have no significant other. One of the others does have a significant other but he doesn't show his face while the "mark" is around. She refers to him as "her stupid boyfriend" and uses him as an excuse that the "mark" must leave before her "stupid boyfriend" gets there and gets jealous. So the guy drops off money, clothes, groceries, medicine, etc. and leaves all in the hopes that when she finally breaks up with "the stupid boyfriend" she will be with him "the mark".
Now Several of the girls...just as sweet and attractive went on to get thier education and/or have families and deserve the respect that comes with a decent life but it's sad that they are outnumbered by the ones who decided to live only by taking advantage of men. Of course who are the men that they are taking advantage of? Well most of them are scumbags and most of the girls didn't start out to do this but were talked into it by some old geezer that wanted to take advantage of them. So who are the real culprits...? It's complicated. But until we all get back to the basics and at least one generation decides to take stock and restructure ... well... we're in for it I'm afraid.
What, do you mean that men should have offered her a seat but women don't need to extend that same courtesy? Courtesy is for both sexes, and the person who gets a seat should be the person who most needs it. If you'd been sitting, wouldn't you have given up your place to an elderly man who just might have fought in WW2?
BTW, if I'd been standing by this woman I probably would have loudly asked if someone would care to give up their seat for this lady who needed it. Sometimes people respond beautifully to a little prompting, especially when guilt comes attached. I've done things like this, asked a young man to give up his seat to an elderly passenger or to a handicapped person. Someone always does the right thing, if you don't let them look away and pretend you're not there.
Wow, you have certainly received a lot of comments on this post. I hope that everyone agrees with you. I'm a woman and if you and I are both at a door, I hold it open. To do anything else would be rude.
We belong to a gym and I can't tel you how many times the male manager has allowed the door to close in my face. Talk about a rude male, he's it.
Great post :)
I hate it that men use their strength to physically push you out of the way - the reverse of chivalry!
It's not even a matter of Chivalry, it's a lack of common courtesy.
Yes how true. My poor daughter got knocked down 3 times yesterday as we were trying to ride the train. Honestly there was lots of room for everyone why the rush ? Oh and my daughter is only 4.
As a man, I agree with you and I do my best to show respect to women, not because I am better or stronger just because I feel it is the right thing to do. Also, as a man I have to say that in todays world it is difficult to tell who it is ok to respect. I have been told off by women who did not want me to hold the door. Yes I did know that they were capable. So, give some of us mixed up males recieving mixed up rules and signals a break. Some of us are still trying!
I would agree on this but sometimes I find myself with my four kids refusing a seat. I think I am guilty of confusing people on what is expected.
Usually I find that people are just too concerned with themselves and don't take the time to look around for someone needing assistance or someone we may have stepped on to get there.
My favorite example of this behavior: the busy doorway sidestep maneuver. You enter a doorway in a train station or someplace with lots of foot traffic. You hold the door open as you walk though the doorway and attempt to pass the door off to the man walking behind you. Instead of taking the door and holding it open for himself, he sidesteps through the doorway to try to force you to hold the door open for him. And if you let go of the door, it usually slams in the face of the person walking behind the jerk. I don't think it's simply a matter of chivalry. I think people in general are not respectful enough of each other in public places.
someone should of told one of those men to get up if that dont work mace does
I guess it's a bit tougher in the mornings when we haven't had our Starbucks.
Hey, I just wanted to say I love your blogs, I just love taking time to read them :).
You should come check out mine. You don't have to, it might be pretty boring compared to yours, but if you ever have time to waste while at work, just stop by, and say hello!
I always gave up my seat in the subway when I lived in NY, always opened doors for everyone. I think it's not a matter of chivalry, just common manners.
I agree that the men who were at the sub were pricks. They definitely should have offered their seats to a pregnant woman. That's a big mistake.
I don't think a singular experience can let someone decide about all the males in the world. There also are some men who do the need required.
I myself have done it. I give my seats for old men and women.
Well I think U r asking a little too much from people who move out of their houses having the load of their families on their shoulders.....those who don't offer u seats are already frustrated enough from their lives .....fed up of the daily routine they follow.......go visit some lower middle class man's home and put urself in tht position then ask urself.......all said and done.....u do deserve some respect,....
Woman can be just as bad is men. Being polite has nothing to do with gender. Good manners are good manner.
What on earth is wrong with females I cannot understand…on one side I hear this lengthy talk about the fairer sex being equal to the males…which I strongly believe is true but then you people want the men to be chivalrous, to do things for u people, to let you stand in front of them in queues, to give you seats, and what not…but see you are contradicting your own statement here…because everything works on an on-off principle…either you are equal or privileged…it doesn’t work according to your whims and fancies…
The basic cause of problem here is that you people don’t consider yourselves equal and that in the long term gives rise to feelings that you have mentioned here…see if a lady was standing there with a kid everyone was equally responsible for getting up and giving her a seat… not just the rude men sitting there!!!
Why do you people want the men to be chivalrous in the first place…I say just rise up…pull them behind and move forward…get that old female spirit out of your head first and the world will definitely seem better…
And I guess its just that bone in you people…the one that makes you shout and shriek…unnecessarily seek attention…gossip about the other women and say things behind their backs and other such stuff womanly stuff that is speaking here…get rational…there is more to existence than the man-woman paradox…
and i'd be surprised if i see this comment approved...
Hey working girl,I am totally agree with you!! But just be strong..don't let things like that stuck in your head...we show the men and the world that women aren't weak!
this is unfortunately an outcome of ppl's wrong understanding of equality between men and women, men should start to see simple things such as sparing a seat for a lady in the bus as a form of responsibility that enhances their manhood, a sign of the remaining mercy and kindness in their hearts.
that's such a shame... someone could've given up their seat. but then again people nowadays don't care much for their neighbors.
jlatino:
haha I don't know where you live, but I'm currently living in Macau, China (from U.S.) I always stand up and give away my seat when I see the bus is full. The worst is when I get up only to see a man not much older than me take the seat. Unfortunately, I can't explain that I was giving the seat to an elderly person or child, because I don't speak the language...But I have a question for you. If you saw a very elderly man standing on the bus, would you feel inclined to give up your seat to him?
hmmm yup..
but,
can i blame the family?
where all the manners, love and respect grow
I think those are just to be described as "male persons" and not what you can really call a "Man"...!
Hear! Hear!
I am a woman and I believe that YOU or any other woman on that train could have offered the baby-juggling woman a seat! How can you chastise men for not doing what's respectful when you slunk down and enjoyed your seat just the same? Seems a little crazy to me.
Women should offer their seats just as well to a pregnant lady, elderly person, or anyone with children. This should not be practiced only by a man. We all need to learn our manners and practice them! I have a young child and have been at the mall with a stroller and bags trying to open a door and get everything through when some people just walk past you or let the door slam on you. This is not just men, it's all. Men, women, elders and children!!! But, there are still some very polite people out there and we greatly appreciate them!!!
Ya you can blame the family of the person who didn't offer the seat.
But if u blame all the males then it sounds like a chauvinistic statement......
Is there any reason why you couldn't have offered that lady your seat? Maybe the men were running late to a big meeting with a client and would lose their jobs if they didn't show up on time.
You claim to be a femenist and you fall into the category of EVERY other femenist I have met. You preach about women equality and rant about how you are just as good as men, but as soon as being equal becomes "inconvenient" you immediately cry foul and scream about how chivalry is dead.
I am sure you are a very nice lady and deserve respect, but you can't have it both ways. I think men and women alike should be respectful to each other. If I am carrying three kids and a stack of papers, I would be greatful to anyone who offered me their seat, male or female. I think it is absolutely ridiculous for a female to sit there comfortably and quite smugly expect a guy to offer their seat.
“Chivalry is mostly dead, but not quite”,
to paraphrase Magical Max from the Princess Bride.
After 37 years of marriage I still open car doors (all doors) for my wife.
Once you get out into the world though, it’s a crap shoot.
Growing up in the 50s and 60s we were taught to respect women, and girls.
Not to be seen as less than men,
but worthy of the protection you would give a younger sister
and to cherish as a special treasure.
Not a bauble, (read trophy wife), possession, or equal to a pet.
Well, the 60s faded into the 70s like so much bad tie dye
and the feminism that prevailed was not a fight for equal rights,
but rather, an anti male manifesto.
Try opening a door back then.
Many women refused to allow any ‘special treatment’ from men.
One actually shoved me away glowering and spewing unintelligible profanity.
Gloria Steinem did not help women’s rights, she was just more vocal.
BTW, ms Steinem’s brand of communism strips women of their value
while pretending to give more rights.
We got the hint.
You can’t have it both ways, this ain’t Burger King.
Chivalry got slapped around so much by the radical fems
that it finally slipped into a coma.
Many men got tired of the mixed messages and just stopped trying.
Rebel that I am, I reject the norms and continue to exercise my right to be nice.
It’s always a good day for a random act of kindness.
Long Live Chivalry.
Do your part to revive him.
Smile and wait a few steps,
see if some chivalrous man doesn’t reach out and open a door.
Good manners apply to EVERYONE. If a person is struggling with bags, offer to help. If a woman is pregnant, offer her a seat. If a man or woman is elderly, offer them your seat (unless you yourself cannot stand). Open the door for the person coming in behind you and let them go first (man or woman). Say Thanks when a person offers you a courtesy. I think many men have gotten shot down or very rude reactions from women who are hypervigilant about being equal. WTF? I always make it a point to say thanks to any person who is courteous to me. There is no excuse for bad manners. NONE.
As I have just gotten back from my vacation to London, I haven't been able to read all your comments yet. I did want to follow up to defend myself on one point. I see that a few people misunderstood that I didn't want to offer up my own seat to the baby lady on my train last week. Unfortunately, I didn't make myself clear here (my writing was quite ambiguous the other day). On this particular day I was standing and had no seat to offer the lady with a baby and her ecoutrements. But if I had been sitting I definitely would have let her have my seat.
In the past, I have been in similiar situations - in this case it was actually a little old man who reminded me of my grandpa - who I ended up giving my seat to. i will tell this story at length at another date because it is a good one that even had WG1 enraged.
So once I have more time to read and ponder, I will give these all a gander. But WOW, thanks for all the love/hate guys. Working Girl has gone for 11 comments a day to 150!!!!
Hey WG2,
I totally empathize with you on this. Men can be such a-holes. You come to India, and try commuting by bus at any time of the day....it's the same story. Nobody offers their seat to anyone..sad thing is, here, people are used to it.
The other day, I saw a very pregnant woman bravely get into a preposterously crowded bus, shove people aside with her arms, and demand a seat from a man who was seated and trying hard to avoid her eyes! She happily sat the whole ride!
That's how we have to deal with things here, unfortunately! But, 'kudos to that lady', I say.
BTW, you have a wonderful blog here. Congrats on the 'Blog of Note'! Ok, I'll get back to work now!
Come visit my page sometime.
I think incidents like these indicate a need more courtesy and common sense across the board, helping out a fellow human being and all that. However I think Lori nailed it. The sexes are now supposed to be equal, why are you only singling out the men on this one? This should apply to BOTH sexes. The women who didn't get up to give up their seat are equally guilty.
One other thing. Unlike one of the bloggers who admires your use of "effing", .... I don't. It means the same thing no matter how you spell it.
I HATE THE RUSH FOR THE ELEVATOR. I mean I have been here for a few minutes waiting for the magic doors to open, BUT BY CHANCE, stand in front of the wrong magic doors, do I really need to run, push and fight to get on? COME ONE people!
Chivalry is dead in London, beleive me commuting makes me realise this.
@ Single girl:
...do I really need to run, push and fight to get on....
Living in NAM no, but if you live in Japan, it's quite common and if you don't do, you don't get to job on time ;-0 OK, I know it's off topic, but I just love to read this post and add to this Pudding of views and opinions. Lovely!!!
I think the reason Chivalry is dead in the mornings are:
Firstly, Men are super cranky in the mornings and feel the need not to respect anything or anyone during those early hours.
Secondly, Men are very Impatient!!
My comment is referring to the paragraph where you started talking about "men" running you over to get into an elevator. Which makes me laugh because if they were decent enough they would have the courtesy to ALWAYS act chivalrous towards women.
Btw, I am enjoying your blogs, very interesting and entertaining. And the background to your blog adds a nice touch as well!
I think women tend to be just as rude as men. Why didn't any seated women give their seat up to the woman who needed it?
I could not agree more. I take the el to work work every morning and home from work every night here in Chicago. On more than one occasion, I have been nearly trampled by men running for the few available seats during rush hour. BUT, I have to give credit where credit due:
Yesterday evening, I was standing on the el, struggling to maintain my balance after a long day in heels. It was hot, I was crammed among several standing passengers and knew there was little change of getting seat for at least twenty minutes. When a seated passenger stood up and exited the train, there were several men standing closer to the seat than I was, so I didn't even attempt to move towards it. However, the man who was standing closest to the seat tapped me on the shoulder. He asked me if I wanted to sit! And you better believe that I took him up on the offer. :-)
So, there you have it - Chivalry is not dead.
True, chivalry might be dead in the real world, but don't give up. I know a guy who offers me his chair when there aren't any left, always opens the door for me, and picks up anything I drop under the table. I wish I could hire him to yell at people on the subway for not offering me a seat. Unfortunately, he's 14.
The morning commute is a struggle for guys and girls alike. Most guys (and girls) are still half asleep during the early morning hours so chivalry is completely outside their realm of thought. I think (from experience with two male roommates) their thought patterns are at a basic level (as is mine many mornings) and it takes complete concentration to get from their bed to work. I know that my roommates don’t ‘think’ until they are at their desk, have their cup of coffee in hand and are going through their emails/sport columns. As for getting that ‘little respect’ I would say try to commute earlier, people are much nicer when not rushing!
Hey if woman want kids why should other commuters feel the need cater to her needs. This is her personal affair.
It's not as if extra children/babies on the train make the ride more peaceful. If anything, we as commuters have to put up with the noise and the fussing.
My God! I could have written this word for word myself. I totally concur with your disgust at the lack of etiquette on public transportation; I witness it everyday during my commute to work. Another pet peeve of mine…have you ever noticed how some guys sit with their legs spread as far apart as humanly possible? I mean seriously, no man needs that much space (nobody is THAT well-endowed). For kicks I once tried sitting the same way when a male buss mate attempted to pull off the full leg spread. You should try it; it gets a wonderful reaction.
All the best and keep on writing. I love the blog and will be adding it to my list of links on my respective page. Cheers to my fellow working gals!
Hi highly recommend everyone, especially young men today, rent the movie "Breakfast at Tiffany's". It's about relationships. George Peppard is a true gentlemen. It's a classic movie with Audrey Hepburn. I'm 30 and just watched the movie and enjoyed it immensely.
Men don't hold doors open and generally be well mannered to make women feel insignificant. We do it because we want you to feel special, and we get given out to for it. I personally don't do anything nice in order to belittle someone and never have. But ALWAYS whenever I'm nice to someone I am given out to for it being called a misogynist or a chauvinist simply because I wanted to be nice.
Chivalry is dying out because every nice guy in the world gets treated badly. Every nice guy is tarred with the same brush as all the assholes out there. So ladies, please stop giving out about men and perhaps appreciate the fact that they held the door open for you, or offered to help you with something. We're not all bad, so quit treating us like we are...
Ugh! Some crap dude in a tie literally pushed me aside to get into the subway today...I went flying...thanks, crap dude.
Where is any chivalry or concern by women towards men? Where is concern that men are being disrespected and grossly neglected or manipulated by some women for selfish gains? There are many double-standards adopted here which are ignored on this side of the reality that men are being ill-treated, taken advantage of, neglected and used treacherously by manipulative and hypocritical females and males.
Perhaps men are chivalous to ladies and not just women. Unless there is strength required (which 90% of women could still do), it looks kinda silly.
Knights will come back arond the same time that princesses do, methinks.
I believe that feminists should be treated equally to men, with the same type of courtesy men give to other men - which ain't much. But, ladies (non-feminists) are still deserving of chivalry.
I don't think it's even so much as you being a woman as it is being a human. A person shoving another person (male or female)out of the way to be the first to enter a building/bus/subway/etc. is incredibly rude and symptom of what I like to call "hurry syndrome." Our culture is overly obsessed with looking out for number one. Maybe we should all just chill out a bit. And seriously, if you rush, are you really going to get there that much faster than the people you stepped on? Probably not. Take a pill.
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